Why Do Vintage SRs Generally Shave Better Than Their More Modern Counterparts?

[rbscebu]

I have (too) many SRs, about half being modern (say post-1950) and the other half being vintage (say pre-1950). What I have found is that, in general, the vintage SRs shave better than the modern SRs, or it could be that I just enjoy shaving with older SRs.

Is this the same for you and why do you think this is so?

 

[Nanook]

I find my vintage SRs shave a lot better than my modern ones. The only exception to this is my Ralf Aust razors. They outshine any others that I own.

I think the reason that vintage razors shave better is due to production techniques. Razors from the 1800s to the early 1900s were made by humans with care and skill. Modern razors tend to be made on mass by machinery.

 

[silverlifter]

Razors from the 1800s to the early 1900s were made by humans with care and skill.

And the much bigger market would have attracted and retained higher skilled artisans who could make a handsome living from their craft.

 

[rbscebu]

Possibly the steel/heat treatment for SRs was better understood in the older days. It could also include that only the better shaving SRs were kept and looked after.

 

[Mouette]

I have approximately 13 razors in my rotation and of them probably half are modern and half are vintage. Of the modern ones, 4 are Gold Dollars (2 x 66, 1 x W53 and 1 x 59) and a Dovo Special. With the exception of the Gold Dollar W53, they are all fairly good shavers. I always look forward to shaving with the Dovo. Of the vintage ones, most are early 20th century and they are all good shavers too, except for a Beaujeu Ainse, a small French one - maybe it's the small blade but I have never had a really good shave from it. I really couldn't say if the modern ones are better or worse than the vintage ones. I guess it's about what you have got in your collection. Oh, and I also have a JJ Shorty which is basically a cut down Gold Dollar. Had to rehone it to get an even half decent edge, but it's certainly not one of my favourites.
cheers
andrew

 

[Gargravarr]

Maybe the favourable reception to old-time blades might be put down to old-time techniques. In my erstwhile career as a blacksmith, I only made the one razor just for myself, a (so-called) damascus* western kamisori. I had a limited quantity of the material available (left over from another project) so to me the obvious approach was to create the hollows primarily by fullering (forging between dies) rather than wasting metal by grinding it away into dust.

I'm reasonably sure this approach would (or IMO should) have been adopted by earlier bladesmiths, as there are clear advantages in terms of the metallurgical structure. As for the hardening/tempering techniques, those were (and are) fairly simple if you know what you're doing with individual blades. As soon as you introduce more modern mass-production techniques, you will almost certainly come across quality control issues.

* I really prefer the term "pattern-welded" to "damascus". The latter was originally a crucible steel, not forge-welded at all.

 

[Ebonysw45]

Maybe the favourable reception to old-time blades might be put down to old-time techniques. In my erstwhile career as a blacksmith, I only made the one razor just for myself, a (so-called) damascus* western kamisori. I had a limited quantity of the material available (left over from another project) so to me the obvious approach was to create the hollows primarily by fullering (forging between dies) rather than wasting metal by grinding it away into dust.

I'm reasonably sure this approach would (or IMO should) have been adopted by earlier bladesmiths, as there are clear advantages in terms of the metallurgical structure. As for the hardening/tempering techniques, those were (and are) fairly simple if you know what you're doing with individual blades. As soon as you introduce more modern mass-production techniques, you will almost certainly come across quality control issues.

* I really prefer the term "pattern-welded" to "damascus". The latter was originally a crucible steel, not forge-welded at all.

Hmm, it would only take a little forge to make razors. Just saying. It's not as if the neighbours would complain.

 

[Gargravarr]

Hmm, it would only take a little forge to make razors. Just saying. It's not as if the neighbours would complain.

Yeah, a little forge. A lot of charcoal. A real lot of time learning how to do it. That bit is quicker if you have someone to teach you.

And then there's the sweat and the blisters on your hands that eventually grow into calluses. I've lost my calluses, since I've been out of the craft for years. One day I'll have to think about moving on some of my tools (at least the ones I didn't make for myself), they're taking up space.

 

[Ebonysw45]

Yeah, a little forge. A lot of charcoal. A real lot of time learning how to do it. That bit is quicker if you have someone to teach you.

And then there's the sweat and the blisters on your hands that eventually grow into calluses. I've lost my calluses, since I've been out of the craft for years. One day I'll have to think about moving on some of my tools (at least the ones I didn't make for myself), they're taking up space.

Gas?
Razor forge

 

[Gargravarr]

Gas?
Razor forge

Not impossible, but I've never liked gas forges because of their tendency to oxidise steel. Though solid-fuel forges probably do take more experience and discipline to manage properly. That discipline comes through in the finished work. I've seen a lot of pieces made by amateur blacksmiths where you can tell the work has been taken back to the fire too many times, rather than making every hammer-blow count.

 

[Pbgoose]

I have many good examples of vintage razors and a handful of modern razors. I agree with a lot of what has been said. I think you can feel the love in a lot of the old razors. Well crafted instruments by very experienced artisans using old blade making techniques. There's plenty of discussion to this effect on the forum.
The Japanese certainly made some nice blades. However I don't write off the moderns at all. I love my Thiers Issards. I find they take a very nice edge.
@silverlifter has some gorgeous vintage razors. Do you have any modern razors you really like?

 

[Gargravarr]

...The Japanese certainly made some nice blades...

They certainly did. However, I've seen quite a few (even on this forum, I'd have to search to find it) where the hard edge is an incomplete weld with the body of the kamisori. When I was training as a blacksmith, I remember being told very firmly that if there is any evidence that the component metals were ever separate, then the weld is faulty and the work would NEVER leave the shop.

That doesn't mean those defective kamisoris won't shave well, but it does make me roll my eyes and remember my old teacher, Neville Martin, rest his cantankerous old soul...

 

[silverlifter]

@silverlifter has some gorgeous vintage razors. Do you have any modern razors you really like?

My two Koraats are the last two razors I'd give up if I was forced to downsize. Both because of the quality of the razors and the shave, and the sentimental attachment.

 

[Substance]

there has much debate on this over the years
my personal favourite shavers are early Sheffields, they take a very nice edge and just feel softer (smoother) on the face
I have hardness tested many razors and they tent to be in then 59-61HRC range, this is my target when making mine, the steel recipes were highly guarded secrets “silver steel” “Sheffield steel” were terms more than a specific recipe.
O1 tool and white paper steel are my preferred razor steels

Originally I made my gas forge for doing razors from a 150mm/6” stainless steel pipe with an internal diameter 75mm/3” by about 450mm/18” long and it could be half the length for only razors,
and still use my 4” 4140 post anvil for razors

 

[Gargravarr]

Originally I made my gas forge for doing razors from a 150mm/6” stainless steel pipe with an internal diameter 75mm/3” by about 450mm/18” long and it could be half the length for only razors,
and still use my 4” 4140 post anvil for razors

If I could have worked with a forge that size, I would probably have kept going for a lot longer. My forge was essentially a big pile of bricks 5 feet by 7 feet. I originally set it up as a backblast, but after a while I got sick of being covered in charcoal dust, so I rebuilt it as a sideblast, with a water-cooled tuyère. It made life pretty warm when the outside temperature went over 40⁰. But by banking the fire with wet cinders it gave me a lot of flexibility for different shapes and sizes of workpieces.

 

[Jaco]

Everyone have their personal preferences, but in my mind, I firmly believe that nothing beats a Filarmonica14 Sub Cero in terms of comfort and efficiency. Koraat comes close, but I will give it third place in my collection of about 40 razors of different makes and sizes.

No real surprizes there, but the surprizing bit is that second place will go to a Herders 77 with a Dutch point, I also have two with square points, but they don't come close. Don't understand why, it just is.

I agree that vintage wins the race, my suspicion is that the modern steels, being of better "quality" is harder and tougher with less flexibility that does not translate to a better shave.

I got into trouble before, for saying that I don't like the shaving ability of TI razors. Beautiful razors, mostly well made, but I can simply not get the same comfort from them compared to my favourites. Maybe the steel is just too hard for me, it always feels harsh.